God

I would totally love to get involved in this, but it's getting way too intense and I have a really limited knowledge of the bible.

What I can say though is that for the longest time I had no belief in God or any "higher being" and I don't even know why. But recently I haven't necessarily accepted Him, but I've become more open to ideas that have been presented before me. Reading everyone's proof (for the sake of being equal, we'll call everything proof) have only confused me more. I guess what it really comes down to for me is that I have sit down and actually read the bible and draw my own conclusions.

I've had a couple small discussions regarding the bible and most recently my friend brought a point to my attention. He explained that the bible was only a set of guidelines (I think this might have been mentioned briefly) that do not force you to follow a certain "higher being" but just ways to improve your own life. The commandments were written for personal health, as in it would make your own life more positive if you didn't murder someone. Then the idea of God was the reward after your life ends, by following these ideas of self-improvement, when your life ends you will be rewarded with "Heaven", a utopic society. But I'm just reiterating what my friend explained to me.

In the words of Tom Paine:

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. "

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I would totally love to get involved in this, but it's getting way too intense

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why do you post this and then continue to voice your opinion?!!

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"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. "

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Does the church generate 'profit'? No. Are most churches involved in missionary/ charity which improves the quality of life for those less fortunate than ourselves? Yes. Can you choose to ignore a church and its activities? Completely. That quote smells kinda funny, a bit like bull...

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I've had a couple small discussions regarding the bible and most recently my friend brought a point to my attention. He explained that the bible was only a set of guidelines (I think this might have been mentioned briefly) that do not force you to follow a certain "higher being" but just ways to improve your own life. The commandments were written for personal health, as in it would make your own life more positive if you didn't murder someone. Then the idea of God was the reward after your life ends, by following these ideas of self-improvement, when your life ends you will be rewarded with "Heaven", a utopic society. But I'm just reiterating what my friend explained to me.

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Yes that is true to a certain extent, but the key to heaven is not how much 'good' you do (as so many people believe) , but accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour. From then on, the bible becomes more a way of life than just 'guidelines' and completely relevent, even in todays society.

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I dont believe we are here to exist, I believe the purpose of the human race is painfully clear. We are here to destroy

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If that is your belief then why don’t you go out and buy a gun and justify your purpose by ‘destroying’ people/things. If we are here to ‘destroy’ why do we have an inbuilt desire to love?

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"Faith is merely a coping tool. Having Faith that something better than you, more powerful, has your best interests at heart. Is guiding you, or going to better you. Faith is just for coping. Without fear, there would be no faith." - that doesnt explain why we are here and how we are here.
---neither does faith. you misunderstand his definition of faith. Faith being the need for someone to confide and believe in something bigger than ones self which is controlling ones destiny. THAT is the crutch/coping tool that he speaks of

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How can u say ‘neither does faith’??? Having faith means you believe in a higher being, which in turn means you believe this higher being has a purpose for you. Therefore faith in God explains correctly why and how we are here. All you have done there is counter what I have said by saying ‘neither does faith’ and added a dictionary definition of what faith is. Please elaborate and provide evidence as to why faith isn’t true.

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For example, God loves all his children, that being said why are so many people born with physical and mental disabilities? Would you not think that god would want all people to be equal?

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Well this seems to be in the bracket of 'pain and suffering' so I will try my best to answer. So in the beginning Adam and Eve were created perfect. However they failed to obey God by eating from the tree and where evicted from paradise. God told Adam "Cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground." (Genesis 3:17, 19) Adam and Eve became subject to sickness, pain, aging, and death. Suffering has become a part of human experience.—Genesis 5:29. And so suffering is a result of sin.

You yourself are craving answers which are not fullfilled by your own beliefs. Evolution does not provide an explanation for that argument. The bible does, fact.

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2nd question, God created us in his image, so how does one explain the millions of years of existance before the first humans were recorded, and what of the dinosaurs? Were they simply place holders until God could get a version of humans that was ideal? Sort of like Human v5.0?

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Well your opening another can of worms here, but if you want to go down that route then fair enough.

Dinosaurs did indeed exist. I wouldnt deny there existance for one second. My belief is that they sprang suddenly onto the planet, probably on the same day during which God created man and they became extinct almost as suddenly. I can elaborate on that if you want, but if you choose to completely deny this possibility then I wont.

You may now turn around and say to me that you just accept your existance, but that creates more questions than answers ('why, why and why springs to mind'). Id like to ask the same questions to you if I may. Like how the dinosaurs came to be, and the exact molecular process that took place in order to create them.

First of all let me say this. If someone says something like hxc did and the decides to voice his opinion, it is absolutely none of your business to point that out, you wanted a debate, theres your debate, who gives a shit how it got there. So enough with that, its pointless and isnt progressing anything.

lol well my friend, I am not a biologist, however the idea of molecular composition seems a little more plausible than "god did it" does it not?

I think you've taken my opinion, just as you've taken the bible, a little to literally. The idea that humans are simply here to destroy applies directly to you and your wasteful nature as well. Dont deny it, everyones thrown something in the garbage when they should have recycled it, everyones tossed garbage onto the street at least once, and everyone has used a fossil fuel. All of which is simply your contribution to the destruction of the planet my friend. The destruction I speak of is not so simply limited between men. Inbuilt desire to love... this is true, Im sure we've all loved someone in our lives, and im sure if you have that you'll agree love can be pretty destructive in its own right as well. If you've never experienced the pain of a lost love, or been thrown into a rage because of someone you love then I wish i were you lol.

Ok about faith as a coping tool. Im not sure if you just didnt get the idea or if I didnt explain it properly but let me try again. Faith is like a crutch for people who have difficulty accepting reality. Like the alcoholic who drinks to escape the dismal truth of his reality, the religious place all hope and faith in god to guide their lives. Say they were trying for a new job and didnt get it, they would say "well GOD didnt want this to be", when instead they should have said, "at some point somewhere I fucked up, or someone else fucked up which cost me this job." The way faith is a crutch is simply that it allows people rather than accept the inadequacies of their lives, to believe that they are not in control of their destiny. Thats all I mean about that.

Pain and suffering, first let me say this: Dont ever, ever, ever say ANYTHING from the bible is a fact. If this were a real debate, the moderator would have thrown you out of the room by now. If its not a fact, dont say its a fact.
And about me looking for answers... Im satisfied with my life and my beliefs, I dont question anything about my life. The reason Im involved is because I like to question the belifes of people like yourself, i enjoy watching you attempt to defend your religion. Ive even gone to church youth groups and questioned entire rooms of people armed with bibles lol and although Im happy where I am, I do hope one day someone somewhere can prove to me that god exists... it must be nice believing that no matter what you do, your destiny is predetermined.

Now then, on to pain and suffering. Ok Adam and Eve were perfect, got it, so why did they disobey God? Thats not being very perfect I dont think. So thats problem number one. Suffering is a result of sin, so why are people born into pain and suffering when they have not yet even had the opportunity to sin? Problem number two. If pain and suffering is a result of the first ever two human beings (which, do you seriously believe that thats what happened?) then why are some of the most innocent people on the planet the most damned, and the greediest and most evil are living the life of kings? I suppose you'll say in the afterlife the good will be rewarded for their suffering and the greedy will be punished in hell? Doesnt seem to add up though. So thats my third problem with that statement.

Ok so now to answer my own questions,
1. Physical and mental abnormalities in babies are a result of any given number of problems, from fetal alcohol syndrome to a lack of oxygen while in the womb. Also genetic defomations can be passed down throughout generations. You'll ask how did they get there, well as im sure you know, viral cells can mutate over a period of time and can be passed down from father or mother to son or daughter and so on from then on.

2. Dinosaurs! Woo, Ill be honest I dont know much about dinosaurs, but neither does anyone else really. Evolution is a pretty good explainitory tool, however I am unfortunately not as adept in the field of dinosaurs as I would need to be to answer that question. My apologies.

aaand to answer the question from above for you. Does the church make a profit, of course it does. What do you think that all those preachers and priests are just independently wealthy? Come on, how naive are you really?

Im tired, your turn.

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Now then, on to pain and suffering. Ok Adam and Eve were perfect, got it, so why did they disobey God? Thats not being very perfect I dont think. So thats problem number one. Suffering is a result of sin, so why are people born into pain and suffering when they have not yet even had the opportunity to sin? Problem number two. If pain and suffering is a result of the first ever two human beings (which, do you seriously believe that thats what happened?) then why are some of the most innocent people on the planet the most damned, and the greediest and most evil are living the life of kings? I suppose you'll say in the afterlife the good will be rewarded for their suffering and the greedy will be punished in hell? Doesnt seem to add up though. So thats my third problem with that statement.

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1st of all adam and Eve were never perfect .. they disobey god becuase satan played with there mind ...

as in the Quran says:

Almighty God also revealed: And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Satan, he refused to be those who prostrate.

God said: "What prevented you (O Satan) that you did not postrate when I commanded you?"

God said: "O Satan get down from this (Paradise), it is not for you to be arrogant here. Get out for you are of those humiliated and disgraced."

satan said: "Allow me respite till the Day they are raised up (Day of Resurrection)."

God said: "You are of those allowed respite."

satan said: "Because You have sent me astray, surely I will sit in wait against them (human beings) on Your Straight Path. Then I will come to them from before them and behind them, from their right and from their left and You will not find most of them as thankful ones (they will not be dutiful to You)."

God said: "Get out from Paradise, disgraced and expelled. Whoever of them (mankind) will follow you, then surely I will fill Hell with you all."

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If pain and suffering is a result of the first ever two human beings (which, do you seriously believe that thats what happened?) then why are some of the most innocent people on the planet the most damned, and the greediest and most evil are living the life of kings? I suppose you'll say in the afterlife the good will be rewarded for their suffering and the greedy will be punished in hell? Doesnt seem to add up though. So thats my third problem with that statement.

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as God said in the Quran:

"But if any reject Faith, let not his rejection grieve thee: to Us is their return, and We shall tell them the truth of their deeds: for God knows well all that is in (men's) hearts."

on the 2nd versus, them; the disblievers or what u called "greediest and most evil are living the life of kings"

"We grant them their pleasure for a little while: in the end shall We drive them to a chastisement unrelenting."

"If thou ask them, who it is that created the heavens and the earth. They will certainly say, "God". Say: "Praise be to God!" But most of them understand not."

Where did I voice my opinion, Konnor? I think I explained my current situation which was related to the original topic on the belief of whether was a a God or not, which wasn't an opinion, it was me staying on topic.

Second, what I wrote about the bible wasn't even my opinion. It was something my friend told me and I thought it was interesting. It's not my opinion, so don't attack me for it. Make sure you read all of the post next time, bud.

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But I'm just reiterating what my friend explained to me.

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Well said Ellusionist, but Id like to hear from you, not god. I'd much prefer your opinions and interpretations, not simply quotes from the Quran, not that I dont appreciate the research. By the way I always thought was spelled Koran? Or is there two spellings?
I would actually really like to read it to see how it compares to the christian bible. I understand they are very similar to one another?

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Well said Ellusionist, but Id like to hear from you, not god. I'd much prefer your opinions and interpretations, not simply quotes from the Quran, not that I dont appreciate the research. By the way I always thought was spelled Koran? Or is there two spellings?
I would actually really like to read it to see how it compares to the christian bible. I understand they are very similar to one another?

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my opinion r the same as the Quran..because everything u wanna know is in it. and u can see that by comparing it to the other books. which the other books says unlogic things.

the only problem is when u translate the Quran into English its not like the original arabic Version .. u wont feel it in the english language as it is in arabic its hard to explain what i mean.

We Always go by the name of god and the Quran or Koran .. we cant defy God word which r written, our prophet his miracle was the Koran so int wont be interpretate in the next generations its the oppisite of the bible and the jews book .. and we believe in all prophets may peace be upon them...i cant say anything against it becuase out minds r so limited ..

P.S: Even the all famous albert Einstein the briliant scientist.. .. believed in god ! .. and as the Quran says as well:

"And of men and beasts and cattle are various species of it likewise; those of His servants only who are possessed of knowledge fear God; surely God is Mighty, Forgiving."

he means the scientists before and nowadays they fear God the most...because everytime they discover something of God's Creations they realize the power of the almighty God !

IT is upon this plain narrative of facts, together with another case I am going to mention, that the Christian mythologists, calling themselves the Christian Church, have erected their fable, which for absurdity and extravagance is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the ancients.

The ancient mythologists tell us that the race of Giants made war against Jupiter, and that one of them threw a hundred rocks against him at one throw; that Jupiter defeated him with thunder, and confined him afterwards under Mount Etna; and that every time the Giant turns himself, Mount Etna belches fire. It is here easy to see that the circumstance of the mountain, that of its being a volcano, suggested the idea of the fable; and that the fable is made to fit and wind itself up with that circumstance.

The Christian mythologists tell that their Satan made war against the Almighty, who defeated him, and confined him afterwards, not under a mountain, but in a pit. It is here easy to see that the first fable suggested the idea of the second; for the fable of Jupiter and the Giants was told many hundred years before that of Satan.

Thus far the ancient and the Christian mythologists differ very little from each other. But the latter have contrived to carry the matter much farther. They have contrived to connect the fabulous part of the story of Jesus Christ with the fable originating from Mount Etna; and, in order to make all the parts of the story tie together, they have taken to their aid the traditions of the Jews; for the Christian mythology is made up partly from the ancient mythology, and partly from the Jewish traditions.

The Christian mythologists, after having confined Satan in a pit, were obliged to let him out again to bring on the sequel of the fable. He is then introduced into the garden of Eden in the shape of a snake, or a serpent, and in that shape he enters into familiar conversation with Eve, who is no ways surprised to hear a snake talk; and the issue of this tete-a-tate is, that he persuades her to eat an apple, and the eating of that apple damns all mankind.

After giving Satan this triumph over the whole creation, one would have supposed that the church mythologists would have been kind enough to send him back again to the pit, or, if they had not done this, that they would have put a mountain upon him, (for they say that their faith can remove a mountain) or have put him under a mountain, as the former mythologists had done, to prevent his getting again among the women, and doing more mischief. But instead of this, they leave him at large, without even obliging him to give his parole. The secret of which is, that they could not do without him; and after being at the trouble of making him, they bribed him to stay. They promised him ALL the Jews, ALL the Turks by anticipation, nine-tenths of the world beside, and Mahomet into the bargain. After this, who can doubt the bountifulness of the Christian Mythology?

Having thus made an insurrection and a battle in heaven, in which none of the combatants could be either killed or wounded --put Satan into the pit--let him out again--given him a triumph over the whole creation--damned all mankind by the eating of an apple, there Christian mythologists bring the two ends of their fable together. They represent this virtuous and amiable man, Jesus Christ, to be at once both God and man, and also the Son of God, celestially begotten, on purpose to be sacrificed, because they say that Eve in her longing [NOTE: The French work has: "yielding to an unrestrained appetite.--Editor.] had eaten an apple.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical...ason/part1.html..1
take some time to read "the age of reason" by tom paine. thats a link for the whole thing, and the above is an excerpt

to me, christianity is something people made up to feel better when they shouldn't. for example: Something horrible happens to somebody, like rape, the religious morons just say bullshit like, "ohhh, God has a plan for you, don't worry". did this "God" plan for this horrible thing to happen to this innocent person? there IS NO GOD. thank you