and its never gonna technologically advanced where they can prove that religion is wrong .. because science is made by humen and humen is full of mistakes and anything that is humen made its gonna be full with flaws ! :`)
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and its never gonna technologically advanced where they can prove that religion is wrong .. because science is made by humen and humen is full of mistakes and anything that is humen made its gonna be full with flaws ! :`)
Religion was made by humans as well.Quote:
Originally posted by eLLuSioNiST@22 Minutes Ago
and its never gonna technologically advanced where they can prove that religion is wrong .. because science is made by humen and humen is full of mistakes and anything that is humen made its gonna be full with flaws ! :`)
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nobody proved that yet hehe .. i think thats what science is trying to prove till now but good luck for science :``) .. if u have proofes plz tell them to the world or tell me :`)Quote:
Religion was made by humans as well.
No way in hell was religion created by men! If you knew anything about religion including Christianity! You would know that the religion of Christianity was not made by humans lol. Yes the written word of the Christianity, the Bible was written by men through prophecies from God and from visions and other means. But you cannot argue these things as ur not a believer! And you have to have some conception of the possibilities and the power of God to believe in this.
Ellusionist, you gotta listen to Metalskin, Your trying to prove to him that ur correct yet you dont back up your sources and answer his questions.
then im wondering why ur telling him the same thing .. and u dont have any backups as well .. !! u say no way thats it was created by man but weres ur proof to him !! lol opsQuote:
No way in hell was religion created by men! If you knew anything about religion including Christianity! You would know that the religion of Christianity was not made by humans lol.
P.S: KRAZEE, you gotta listen to XRedBlazeX, Your trying to prove to him that ur correct yet you dont back up your sources and answer his questions. DUH !!
P.S 2: KRAZEE atleast im doin something ur just babling no christianity is no way by humens .. lol instead of babling proof it !! DUH again !!
Metalskin .. everytime i bring him proof he says .. oh there r only 7 links for the proof lol stupid excuses .. see the videos i tell u again .. !! :`)
anyways i gave him the link for the videos and they have science proof backup in everything so no excuses :`) !!
lol i took a break from this thread for like a month, came back and we're in the exact same spot i left it. ellusionist babbling about "proof" and everyone else trying to explain to him that biased propaganda brought forth by his religious groups does not count as PROOF. if it were proof then this argument would be over and the whole world would be muslim by now.
figure it out man, you're never gonna win this argument.
tabloid lol if u dont know anything dont talked .. i told MetalSkin its scientific Proof not from my Religion .. i didnt say anything thats the proofs where from my religion .. or my groups :`)
Tabloid .. if u think ur so Smart Proove to me that there is No God by Science like u say !!? .. dont just babble and say there is no God hehe :`)
if it were proof (that u only say no God and no Proof) then this argument would be over and the whole world would be athiests by now lol !!
yeah it depends on the person .. if he really wanna learn . or he's happy Getting Drunk and Drinking everyday and goin to clubs .. and fkn grlz ... it depends on which life he wants .. pleasure or he wanna learn something and trying to seek the truth :lol:Quote:
if it were proof then this argument would be over and the whole world would be muslim by now
Well I consider myself agnostic..... I don't believe in a particular religion but I keep an open-mind of what is to come and what is out there. In a sense religion is the worlds largest cult. xD
Whats the deal with Noah? A guy lives 5 hundred years, and builds this boat and gets all the living creatures that were to be saved on board? Must've been one hell of a big boat, imagine the living conditions. Noah should be arrested for animal cruelty.
Why did Noah leave out the dinosaurs and kept the mosquitoes? All mosquitoes do is kill people or make them itch. Hell dinosaurs would've been so kickass. (btw that was sarcasm...)
LOL - Metalskin your a clown! A-Class Clown. WHY? Because you tell me to prove to these people there is no God. Id rather sho no proof than show them WRONG proof man.
And the only reason im arguing with them is because they have said all this stuff about there being no God and that religion is wrong, yet they have no proof to suggest that there is no God. And this had nothing to do with u. Your arguments with Metalskin have nothing to do with me. So dont get me started on u bcuz i have a million ways to prove u wrong mate!
So........ Still noone who claimed there was no God or religion still has no reply or evidence to lead me to believe that there is no God?! O well, i shall stick to my beliefs and keep believing in my religion.......
Oh and before when someone mentioned that Religion was for the weak and that they wont survive! LOL Stupidest comment ive heard. U eva heard of the Nazi Germany? I didnt think so. Jews persecuted and killed yet there are still numerous Jews here today?!
Well see whos gonna die out........
I never said i had proof there is no god, all i said is you guys have no proof that there is a god. faith is not a proof. There are people of many faiths, all of which both of you would discount, including the faith of each other.
I know a hell of a lot more about christanity athn you krazee, I even studied theology. Christianity is about "having faith in the unknown". Even the new testement makes a point on this.
When someone has a theory, they try and test it to make sure it stands. this includes your beleif systems. A scientist doesn't just presume he is right, he puts forward an idea/concept and then tries to tear it down. he asks his peers to see if it holds water. (well the decent ones who are not selling the latest fuel additive to improve your economy by 30%). He also accepts people trying to prove him wrong and expects it, some even encourage it.
You guys use circular logic to try and prove yourself right, a lot of it purely subjective and dependant on beleif on aspects of your respective faiths.
None of you have been able to provide independant proof that god exists, let alone that your brand of religion is correct. And both of you end up resorting to personal attacks against people, calling them names, generalising about people and being derogetory. Which to me brings disrepute to the respective religions you both hold so dear.
As Einstein once said, you can't use logic to convince someone that what they beleive is wrong, if their belief system wasn't attained by logic (i'm paraphrasing).
This is why I choose not to debate. I have more interesting and fullfilling ways to waste my time.
Wow just a lil' over 100 votes, with over 500 REPLIES, and 4k VIEWS.
That's like 1 person in every 2 classrooms voting just once, when they actually see the darn poll!!
BACK ON TOPIC: YES I DO BELIEVE.
Well, i'm going try to jump back into this thread after not checking it out for a... long time (since near the beginning). My views have changed from 'undecided' to 'I don't believe'...
I totally agree with MetalSkins post - this is really an endless debate and its impossible to proove either way. Even believers must admit, theres absolutly new physical evidence prooving gods existance.
God is a figment of the human mind to make them feel like theres someone more powerful. Realistically, theres nothing there. Prayers go unanswered. Its simple as that.
There is no afterlife. As RedXBlaze said in a post awhile back that really made me rethink my view of an afterlife (which was kinda undetermined at the time) - your mind is controlled purely by chemical reactions - the same ones that all living things have. When your die your brain stops functioning and your chemical reactions stop - you simply stop thinking (ie: sleeping without dreaming).
There's a theory (although I forgot the name of it, i'll look for it) - if something exists there will be evidence. If theres no evidence, it doesnt exist. This debate is more for the people to believe in god to proove to us why there is a god - there is no god because theres no evidence.
Krazee - what are you talking about? Are you saying that Nazi's were religoness? Are you saying they failed? What are you talking about? You do realize that Jewish people do believe in god...
If religion wasnt created by men, who was it created by then? Did you go to school at all - you do realize there was religon before christianty, correct? Do you think an alien or something came down and made up relgion?
Religion is similar to a theory, with absolutly no evidence or logic at all.
ellusionist - Science isnt some made up idea from the human race. I assure you its very real, and correct. There are theorys (ideas that can't be prooved 100%) and science thats prooven without debate.
When google shows 7 results for this 'prominent' scientist, all some islamic extremist sites I think that 'viewpoint' isnt very supported. And yes, if your claiming he's some prominent scientist and hes only showing 7 results - for all you know he may be some 16 year old kid who dropped out of highschool.
Stop the personal insults, it hurts your viewpoint and insults the community
i believe in god...cuz i hav faith on him xD
I agree. Science proves religion wrong. The facts are there, christians are all just too igonorant to open their eyes to reason.Quote:
Actually science can prove religion wrong, it's just that the human race, in it's current state, has not become technologically advanced enough to prove these "modern" religions wrong.
I'll hit you with the tried and true creationism-evolution arguement. Paleontologists are constantly find so many old fossils that suggest (correctly so) that mankind evolved from one ancient species. You crazy religious types show me the PROOF that 'god' created us.
Also, I get this one from my dear old man a lot - I'll ask him any question and he'll give me "Because that's how god wanted it to be." Ummmm.... OK, thanks for giving me an answer that is completely RETARDED. I remember asking him once, "Dad, why do people have different colored eyes?" and of course, "Because that's how god wanted it to be." I believed him. Until I went into biology and learned genetics. Facts that can be backed up and are believable. PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT COLORED EYES BECAUSE THEIR GENES WERE PASSES ON TO THEM FROM THEIR PARENTS! Not because you nonexistent god wants it like that.
I wish people would listen to reason. There is NOTHING in this world that suggests any god (or gods) exist! You are all simply brainwashed by your parents, family, or whatever influence you had. If you just forgot about everything you knew about religion or science, and compared all the facts (or myths in religion's case) of both sides, you would without a doubt realize that there is NO GOD!
@ MinorThreat
lol What u want a Cup of tea with God so u can Believe that he exists .. What kind of BS is that ! lol
2nd u proove to me that there is No God 1st .. dont just Say "We Evolved and we Evolved .. from what .. show me how Exactly .. Evovled from where and what .. !! a Sperm was Loose on the Earth .. lol thats how We Came here ..
So u think ur the Smart Ass in the World that figured out that there is No God .. And all Ppl in the World R Stupid .. lol i Just wanna Say Stop Drinkin if u R lol !!
Dude stfu where was god before we created him in a religion. IMO religion is a crutch so people can explain what is at the moment unexplainable. Personally i think all of it should be banned and we should just move on with our lives. Oh and by the way the evidence backing up evolution is emense. I have not seen anything, cept religion of course, that disproves it. So why don't get your lazy ass up off the computer and go to a public library and look it up. Better yet, if you're to lazy to do even that just look it up on the internet.Then you'll see.
hey hey .. he's the one who was talking bout Evolution .. why the hell i should look it up .. he should bring the evidence to me .. and if he dont have one .. then dont talk bout evolution and shit like that !!Quote:
Dude stfu where was god before we created him in a religion. IMO religion is a crutch so people can explain what is at the moment unexplainable. Personally i think all of it should be banned and we should just move on with our lives. Oh and by the way the evidence backing up evolution is emense. I have not seen anything, cept religion of course, that disproves it. So why don't get your lazy ass up off the computer and go to a public library and look it up. Better yet, if you're to lazy to do even that just look it up on the internet.Then you'll see.
Ok Mr. Smarty Ass .. then u Explain to me the Unexplainable .. ! and if u cant explain it .. i say just go play HALO or make a Sig or something for urself ! lol
Let me tell u what i found on the Net after ur advise to search the NET lol, and thats only a mini thing that i found .... i found ALOT MORE!! but i think this one is for u .. So plz Answer ! Mr. CrazyGamer
Human brain proves Evolution a lie:
" If we learned something new every second of our lives, it would take three million years to exhaust the capacity of the human brain."
Science has recently proven that if we were to learn something new every second, we would take well over 3 millions years to exhaust the memory capacity of our "post flood" brains. (Pre-flood brains were 3 times larger) On the other hand... Evolutionists say things evolve after there is a need for change.
The human brain is the most complicated structure in the known universe. It contains over 100 billion cells, each with over 50,000 neuron connections to other brain cells. This structure receives over 100 million separate signals from the total human body every second. If we learned something new every second of our lives, it would take three million years to exhaust the capacity of the human brain. In addition to conscious thought, people can actually reason, anticipate consequences, and devise plans – all without knowing they are doing so.
Question... How is it possible for us to have a brain that could hold enough info to last over 3 millions years, when all we can live up to is 90 years? (Don't expect and answer from them.)
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10 BIG Reasons Why Evolution is WRONG!
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First of all why the hell should i have to bring the info to you. You obviously think that you can find it on your own. And second you really didn't prove ne thing. I mean sure you might have a point but the fact is that are brains don't even take information in one second at a time. It takes in information as fast as the eye can see. It just blocks out most of it so you never know. So in truth that 3 million years is just a bunch of bull written by someone like you who forgets to look at more then one scientific study and go ranting on how right you are. So once again talk about stuff you know man.
[Edit] Oh yeah if you can make sense of whatever the hell those ten reasons are can you make it clear to the rest of us here cus that is the most random, jumbled bunch of.....whatever, that i have ever seen. How you made sense of it is something of a mystery to me. Oh and if you want to actually want to prove your point why don't you actually present hardcore evidence that actually makes sense instead of making yourself look like a raving, ignorant zionist.
Personaly I reckon that if there is a supreme being or a god then they don't realy care about indivduals or about peoples lives, etc. I reckon if there is such a being in existance that it's more about the workings of the universe on a massive scale, not the intricate individual scale.
If there was a supreme being or 'god' that was interested in every individual person, in how they live their life from the god's moral views, about what happens from a moralistic view, then I reckon that god would make it obvious that it's existance is real in a way that is clear, not vague methods that requires religious experts to study religious texts to determine if they are the correct interpretation of prophecies, etc.
This whole argument that the christain, hebrew or islamic god doesn't wish to reveal themselves directly because they want the people to beleive via faith is a very nice argument that means you can get away with incredibly thin arguments about the existance of a god and the proofs that you feel prove this.
I'm not even going to get into the argument of how can there be a selfish god or a loving god or a god with any types of attributes we as humans wish to dress the god up, with our own emotions and feelings. Or how a god could allow injustice, war, famine, the concept of a hell or a place of eternal damnation (whether the concept is even stated in religious texts), etc.
I will say once again, that no one here has shown conclusive evidence that screams there is a god or there isn't a god. And I suspect that no one will be able to.
And ellusionist, your argument about the human brain shows your total lack of attempting to read any documentation about the current scientific concepts about evolution. As I stated above, reading the book "History of the Diskworld Part III" will give you a better understanding of where someone like myself is comming from and will even make you better at arguing your case. But currently you make yourself look conceited and comptempful in your views because you do not genuinly look into what other people say.
Man ur Babbling Alot on one Book .. .. when it comes to evolution i go to the original which is Darwins Theory which he cant explain lot of things .. DArwin Preposed That all specieses evolved Successfully from a common ancestor .. but how did that 1st living thing come into being...Darwin did not address this Question at all in his BOOK!! he was not even aware that this point was one of the biggest refutations of his theory !! the primitive understanding of science in his Days assumed that life had a very simple Structure!!Quote:
. As I stated above, reading the book "History of the Diskworld Part III" will give you a better understanding of where someone like myself is comming from and will even make you better at arguing your case.
Now i haven't read all 27 pages of the posts but i am surprised that you ellusionist haven't brought up in your quest for being right the big bang theory and/or the "golden/divine ratio." These 2 things support the theory of religion (yes i am calling it a theory cus thats really all that it is) cus think about it for more then 2 seconds. the big bang states that the entire universe came from a spec so infestesmaly small and dense and then all of a sudden just explosivly expanded. Now how does science explain it, well it doesn't. Also the golden/divine ratio or phi or 1.61803399 (whichever you feel like calling it) is seen throughout nature in many many species including the human race. I don't remember how exactly they compute everything but it is HARDCORE evidence as I would call it. This number seems to allusion to there being a higher power. And how does science explain it, well once again it doesn't. A smart scientist will tell you it depends on which relegion you are on how you explain the rest. But now moving on.....
Did you know that there is serious scientific theories about biblical events. Look at the 7 plagues of egypt. It can all be explained by one thing, a volcanic explosion in some neighboring country. IMO, and some scientists, is that moses was in biblical times what we would today call a scientist. Once again moving on.....
Elusionest I am going to ask you only one question. Do you know anything about religion at all? If you read any non-biased religious history book that you will find that most religions were created, yes created, by men to help control the people over which they ruled, and also to give them a source of power. I mean think about it. Which do you think that people would rather go to war for.....GOD, or just some king. So a lot of people got to use religion as an excuse to fight for a cause. Also think about christianity. Do you know how it really started. I mean after Jesus's death of course, sure you can read the bible and find out a little. But what i mean is do you know how the actual church started? It all started with catholisism. And do you know what that was for.....POWER. The catholic church more or less held power over Europe. It wasn't until the last 200 years or so that it has really lost it's power. And I also have an opinion at what religion should be, it shouldn't be this oh if you don't follow this one you will burn in hell for all eternity, but rather this is how you should live your life. NE ways that all I have to say on this subject, cept I do have to say that i am rather intrigued on this topic so i will probably active on it. So Elusionist I challenge you to find a real argument.
'Later for Now
You go to Darwin's book The Orgin of the Species which was published in 1859?
No one goes back to Newtons first publishings to learn about current scientific understanding on gravity. No one goes back to Einstein's first publishings about relativity when understanding current scientific undertstanding about relativity. Why is this? because over time science tests the initial ideas and based on observation and testing refine them.
Your basing your understanding on the argument of evolution on the very initial public publishing that occured over 150 years ago!
This shows your total lack of understanding on how science works and on how scientific research occurs.
The only reason I am mentioning the book "History of the Disk World Part III" is because it is written for non scientific people (ie. lay people) and explains in detail how the book "The Origin of the Species" came into existance, how the ideas have progressed and the current standing of Evolution in Science today. It also discusses the biggest arguments from Religious circles against Evolution and talks about Inteligent Design. The book takes the view point of Evolution, but it is good for people of all view points because it expalins a lot of where current understanding of all viewpoints have come from.
So before you sprout out with some other copied ideas from others, why dont you do some research and reading yourself. For a person willing to debate, you are very closed minded in reading anything other than that published in your own religious context.
Exactly .... Science .. nowadays r proving the Evolution Theory is just Crap .. like for example the Humen DNA Structure is to complex it couldnt be imerged by chance and life is to complex .. to come from a stupid Random Things ... this is impossible .. by logic ..
and i saw the debate in CNN with larry king with the president of the american Athiests .. again 3 scholars of diff religion (Judi, Chris, Islam) .. she's have no Answers at ALL !! .. she was humilated and crushed in the debate .. because athiest cant answer shit !
so if the president of the Athiest Club didnt read books like u said .. then why do i even bother lol !!
Religious leaders depend on charisma and oral skills, its a core part of their job requirement.
There is no 'spokesperson' for people who do not beleive in religion, and scientists develop analystical skills, not oral skills.
So a debate on the Larry King show isn't going to convince me of anything.
Also you never answered what I raised, your basing your understanding on evolutionism based on your own religious based publishings saying that its wrong. You have never obtained an independant view of evolution so your entire logic is flawed due to the bias of the information you base your arguments upon.
The fact that you continualy change teh subject and object of what you talk abot in trying to prove your right shows that you dont even bother to try and address points that are raised. A common trait of religious people when faced with a difficult answer is to change the conversation onto an area they feel more comfortable in arguing, hence your deflection to the larry king show.
No NO ... from Science itself not my Religion !!Quote:
Also you never answered what I raised, your basing your understanding on evolutionism based on your own religious based publishings saying that its wrong. You have never obtained an independant view of evolution so your entire logic is flawed due to the bias of the information you base your arguments upon.
im not trying to convince u .. but they Have NO ANSWERS FOR NOTHING .. thats the POINT !! .. THEY JUST BLAH BLAH .. and nothingQuote:
So a debate on the Larry King show isn't going to convince me of anything.
OK THEN U TELL ME ABOUT THE HuMEN DNA STRUCTURE .. AND SHOW ME HOW DID IT HAPPEN FROM THE BIGGING ?! BECAUSE IF SCIENCE CANT ANSWER THAT .. MAYBE U DO !!?
You dont even provide sources for your comments, and all these 'video proofs' and links you provide are information provide by people with a religious agenda. Dont try and sell me the idea that you dont get that information from people who hold the same beleifs as you.
Start answering my post about how your basing your understanding of Evolution on the publishings of Darwin over 150 years ago and have not read a single book, white paper or published work that is not from a religious biased source in your understanding of evolution.
You allow your view to be only controled by your religious environment, without stepping out of that bias to see if there is another view point that could be true. You dont perform proper testing of the ideas you hold, you only repeat what you have read in your religious context, as being good argument against people who dont beleive in your religion.
UR DOIN THE SAME THING IN THE ATHIEST PRESPECTIVE !! .. UR NOT READING WHAT IM SHOWING U .. AND IM NOT READING THE BOOKS UR SHOWING ME .. SO ITS SAME SHIT !!
Human dna really isn't that much different from apes, but you knew that already right.
I SAID TELL ME ABOUT THE HuMEN DNA STRUCTURE .. AND SHOW ME HOW DID IT HAPPEN FROM THE BIGGING FROM THE ORIGIN ?! BECAUSE IF SCIENCE CANT ANSWER THAT .. MAYBE U DO !!?Quote:
Human dna really isn't that much different from apes, but you knew that already right.
I can't explain it cus i don't have right in front of me for one, for another I didn't memorize, and another i am not a scientist. I am merly a person who can actually say things that are backed by understanding and not faith.
Oh yeah maybe you should read the first post on this page you might learn a little from it ellusionist.
THANK U !!! THATS WHAT I WANTED TO HEAR !! BECAUSE NOT JUST U DONT WORRY NOT EVEN A SCIENTIST CAN !!Quote:
I can't explain it cus i don't have right in front of me for one, for another I didn't memorize, and another i am not a scientist. I am merly a person who can actually say things that are backed by understanding and not faith.
Ellusionist,
It's a shame that you feel you have to post an enite uppercase post, and start swearing, something I wouldn't expect from someone who espouses religious ideology.
You also have not read all my posts when I have stated that I was heavily involved in religion, that I even studied theology. That I used to door knock and preach, and even went to China in an outreach trip to china, 2 years after tinnamin square. I also have read the initial links you posted, but after that i found that you started to repeat yourself and the links you posted and didn't feel a need to.
There is not one thing you have raised which I havn't studied over the years when i was heavily involved in religion (except for some islam specifc ones, which i read). There is not one new concept you have espoused that hasn't been espoused by christains, Jehovah Witnesses, and to a limited extend, by Intelligent Designers.
You forget that i am over double your age and have a wealth of experiance that you cannot imagine, i have a lot more exposure to different ideas, different cultures and different beleif systems.
Of course I do not beleive what you do, and i know by the tenants of your religion you do not have to respect me as your senior, yet I do beleive your attitude has a big impact on how people here preceive your posts.
Take a break, have a careful read of what has been posted and lets continue the debate.
Really thats why many scientists believe in it, can give answers and can explain the whole process for you. You just have to ask. Which you very obviously haven't done. And also if you actually read up currently there is more evidence supporting evelotion then ever before. So why don't you use your head for something other then a mouth for spewing out some religious crap and go look it up.
LOOL I SEE THATS WHY 3/4 OF THE WORLD BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION MORE THAN RELIGION ... HMMM....RIGHTTTT LOL !! WOW I CAN SEE THAT NOW!Quote:
Really thats why many scientists believe in it, can give answers and can explain the whole process for you. You just have to ask. Which you very obviously haven't done. And also if you actually read up currently there is more evidence supporting evelotion then ever before. So why don't you use your head for something other then a mouth for spewing out some religious crap and go look it up.
I DONT KNOW MAYBE BECAUSE BILLIONS OF PPL R STUPID FOR NOT BELIEVING IN EVOLUTION ! HMMM....DAMN UR THAT SMART TO FIGURE IT OUT !!
No, but just becus most people believe in something else doesn't mean they are right now does it. Now you ask us for proof. To explain it. To do all of these which we can do only to a certain extent and will obviosly not satisfy you. But i ask this.....Why, for one, don't you provide proof, evidence, and explain your way of view? But thats right you can't and we can(well me and metal can only give so much as i am not a scientist and i don't believe he is either).
I DID !! I POSTED THE LINK FOR THE VIDEOS .. THESE R MY HARDCORE EVEDINCE .. THEY CAN EXPLAIN MY VIEW WELL MORE THAN I TYPE HERE SO ITS BETTER TO WATCH THAN READ!!
The Videos Subjects R about:
Subjects:
* The Collapse of Darwinism
* The Disasters Darwinism Brought to Humanity
* Architects of Nature
* Splendor of the Sea
* Miracles of the Quran
* The Fact of Creation
* The Creation of the Universe
* The Secret Beyond Matter
VIDEOS
Hmmm surprise surprise... Have you actually looked at them? I doubt it. you know why? CUS THE DAMNED LINKS DON'T WORK. So stfu and give us something substantial instead of finding something that looks good and actually look into it before you post you fool.
I WATCHED TO THEM ONE BY ONE .. AND FOR ME THEY MAKE SENSE MORE THE EVO CRAP !!
THATS LOOKS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME ... LOL
EDIT: IT WORKING FOR ME !!
CrazyGamer, the links do work, it uses Realplayer which you may not have installed which may be why it doesnt' work for you.
I understand Ellusionist is getting heated cause he feels frustrated but your being rude and insulting without any valid reason.
If you can't be nice dont post, your not adding to the conversation.
I have to do some work Illusionist, I'll answer this when I get home in about 8 hours.
