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In reply to the ellusionists comment about the Quran being from Allah, if it were Allah's words and these words being too perfect for a human to write it how did it come to be the book it is today? I am Christian and am not familiar with the Quran but would like to know as the Bible was spoken by God to the prophets who then wrote it down and put it together to form the Bible.
What i ment is .. they r the words of God .. so no humen can write like it .. u didnt understand me lol ... i ment that the humens can copy it and so on for generations to come .. but they cant write like it .. now u get me ?
does no one belive in good ol science here
im agnostic altho i am technically christian
does no one belive in good ol science here
im agnostic altho i am technically christian
i know im quoting demo from the first page of this thread but that is the STUPIDEST reason to believe in god. LOL!Quote:
Originally posted by tacoX@Jan 7 2005, 02:28 AM
I'm undecided at the moment, although in most cases I believe in god. Theres things in my life that really challenge the beleif of god* - so I really dont know.
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All organised religion goes around the premis that you have to have faith. Definition of faith? To beleive in something without any supporting proof at all.
Would you buy a car without proof that its roadworthy or even works? Would you get a buy to build a house without proof that they're a reputible builder?
But when it comes to religion its an emotional and environmental disicion.
Personaly the concept of a God style being or beings, the concept of ghosts or other entities is quite possible. It may be that our technology and our understanding of the physical laws of the Universe just don't cover such things. Maybe other dimensions handle such aspects of God style beings. But either way, I dont see any organised religion on having the goods over all the others. Not all of em can be right, and which one do you choose, and based on what?
I was heavily involved in religion when i was in my late teens and early twenties, even studied Theology. But when I look back I see a lonley kid who got a lot out of the social aspect and the price was the beleif system.
Anyway, I should get off my soap box before I end up posting a post that exceeds the max limit :-)
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I realy need a spell checker for posting!
wow...when did punk get back...sorry guys stay on topic :D..
...you are fantastic... LOL yeah guys, stay on topic. :DQuote:
Originally posted by XxBLPxX HaVeN@Apr 4 2005, 05:49 PM
wow...when did punk get back...sorry guys stay on topic :D..
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Anyway, to ellusionist and his "perfect" Quran. You have yet to tell me WHY it is perfect, and if you say humans just cant write like it one more time Im never coming back to this thread lol. Unless thats what you want, then Im coming back twice daily until I die haha.
Anyway, please, stay on topic lol.
;) Im just playin Haven, you know I love you lol.
uh...yeah..love you to :huh: :blink:
PS: stay on topic guys.. :P
I dont beleive in god. Ive never encoutered anything, even after reading the bible, that has convinced me otherwise. Personally, I beleive in chaos theory, that there is no reason for something happening, just a serise of random, un-predictable events. Guess just the way I grew up.
Damn man im repeating myself over and over and u dont understand .. how old r u anyway lol !Quote:
Anyway, to ellusionist and his "perfect" Quran. You have yet to tell me WHY it is perfect, and if you say humans just cant write like it one more time Im never coming back to this thread lol. Unless thats what you want, then Im coming back twice daily until I die haha.
ok i'll tell u why its perfect AGAIN ! ... the Quran is written why long time ago like before 632 AD ... and it tells u .. how the creation starts .. and how the ppl will think in the future and so on ... Example Noah Ark... it was written in the Quran how the story happened .. and where did the Ark ended so it can be a proove of God existance (which the SCIENTISTS discovered in i think 1958 untill now over 100 SCIENTISTS Confirmed that its Noah's ARK)So how can a book that old tells us where the Ark ended and how the creation started and so on.... but also these is alot of other things that prooves that God exists ! ... and its written in a perfect way in grammer and style in arabic .. which nobody can make one chapter like it these days ... so its hardly for a man along that time .. to predict and rigtht those things .. GOT IT !! or u want me to repeat again .. and i hope u wont give me a stupid excuse again .. ! :D
thats the biggest proof that nobody can write like it .. what else u want me to tell u if that u dont understand ..
i think ur just making excuses thats all ... !!
Hmm.
I used to be into relligion in a very big way many years ago. Even studied theology (i think i'm repeating myself).
Anyway, I just want to make it clear. As far as I am aware there has been no reported finding of Noah's Ark in any scientific journal of repute. By repute I mean an independant journal not financed (or owned) by any religious group.
In the main stream christian religions, they all beleive in Noah's Ark and the great Deluge. however one of the premises is that there is no proof of God, and God refuses to prove his extistant. Cause then you would know he exists but you wouldn't have faith in him... The christain faith is based on beleif and faith in the unproven.
I'm not familar with Isam enough to comment on their faith principles, but I thought the matter of faith was very similar to Christianity, which is to have faith in something not proved. To beleive in God based on the marvel of creation, but not from scientific fact.
There is a lot of evidence that some form or cataclysmic event occured in our past. A lot of different independ societies with different beleif systems have stories of a 'great deluge'. However such an event doesn't prove that there is a God. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that finding Noah's Ark proves this.
No offence intended in my post btw.
Here u Go ... that answers ur 1st Question :DQuote:
Anyway, I just want to make it clear. As far as I am aware there has been no reported finding of Noah's Ark in any scientific journal of repute. By repute I mean an independant journal not financed (or owned) by any religious group.
1- http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...7_noahsark.html
2- http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahs-ark-07.htm
3- http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm
4- http://news.nationalgeographic.com/k...5/noahark.html
5- http://users.netconnect.com.au/~leedas/noahb.html
6- http://www.najaco.com/literature/articles/.../august2001.htm
2nd Question:Quote:
In the main stream christian religions, they all beleive in Noah's Ark and the great Deluge. however one of the premises is that there is no proof of God, and God refuses to prove his extistant. Cause then you would know he exists but you wouldn't have faith in him... The christain faith is based on beleif and faith in the unproven.
in Our Quran it Says .. that God Created this world and us .. so we can acknowledge his existance .. because the more that u know God exist the more u gonna fear him .. and try to do good in this world and pray to him.
3rd Question:Quote:
There is a lot of evidence that some form or cataclysmic event occured in our past. A lot of different independ societies with different beleif systems have stories of a 'great deluge'. However such an event doesn't prove that there is a God. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that finding Noah's Ark proves this.
The Creator=> It is only logical to believe that before anything was created there had to be a Creator. It is, also, only logical to believe that this Creator had to be an eternal being without beginning or end and that nothing could be like this Creator. It is this Unique Being Whom the Quran calls God the Lord, the Only Supreme Being worthy of worship.
its written in the Quran:
"We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin. " 029.014
"But We saved him and the companions of the Ark, and We made the (Ark) a Sign for all peoples!" 029.015
"Then the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water, and O sky! Withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: "Away with those who do wrong!" 011.044
P.S: Mount Judi what is known as now Mount Ararat or the oppisite side of Mount Ararat in Turkey
SO HOW CAN A HUMEN RIGHT THE QURAN AND THE BOOK IS LIKE BEFORE 634 AD .. AND KNOWS ALL OF THAT !! HE MUST BE A.I. MAYBE LOL !!
... Up until reading ellusionists last like 50 posts I thought I was pretty smart guy. Im 21 by the way. Can someone other than ellusionist please tell me they understand why the Quran is perfect cause none of that shit makes sense. "Its written in a way that no one can write now" so... that either means that everyone whos tried is an idiot, or its an obsolete form of language that no one has actually practiced in centuries... i refer you to Shakespeare, for an example. Simply because its in a vernacular that is no longer being used, does not make it "the perfect word of God". The only way it could be believably the word of god is if it were in such a form of speech that NO ONE could understand it, because, like the vision of god, his language would be incomprehendable to human beings.
I hope, in all you've writtin ellusionist, that you can realize that you, like the bible, have proven nothing more than the gullibility of the general public.
All of your statements are hollow and illogical. You keep saying "its perfect because we cant do it" Just because you keep repeating it doesnt mean its making sense. I can say no a thousand times and it will never mean yes. Get it?
what I love about Noahs ark is that god chose one family to be saved out of all the people in the world. Im sure more than 6 people were "honorable" so what were the rest? sacrifices for the greater good? Shit, god screwed up the first time, and it looks like shit went downhill again... I wonder whats gonna kill all of us... You're right, if I believed in god I would fear him too, hes kind of moody.
PS. I love MetalSkin for being one of the only other people here using logic as an argument. Thank you for knowing more than me lol.
ok lets say that a humen made it ok ? ... wow than that humen is so smart to know bout the future .. or too smart to know how did the Creation begins ? .. i dont know u tell me then ? was a supreme humen that made it ?! wow and he must damn really good to write all of these stories hmmm....and if humens r limited minded ,, lol DAMN how did he know all of this !! isnt that over his limited Mind !! :D
1st of all this is u got the wrong story .. noah was prophet .. and tried to convince the ppl to believe in God but no one did he tried and tried .. only few believed in him like maybe 8 ppl and his family .. so the ppl screwed them self up by not believing !!Quote:
what I love about Noahs ark is that god chose one family to be saved out of all the people in the world. Im sure more than 6 people were "honorable" so what were the rest? sacrifices for the greater good? Shit, god screwed up the first time, and it looks like shit went downhill again... I wonder whats gonna kill all of us... You're right, if I believed in god I would fear him too, hes kind of moody.
P.S: lol thats ok tabloid believe what u wanna believe we gonna see whose gonna luaghe last when u gonna be in the Grave ! lol then i wonder if there is God what ur excuse gonna be to him ! :D
P.S 2: like u said if u cant answer the Question where did we came from or how the world was created .. and u dont have scientific proof for that lol .. then dont argue ! :D
P.S 3: u cant imagine that there is a God because its over ur limited mind ! :D and u know that humens minds R Limited :D
Unfortunatly none of your links are what I stated I required for evidence about the existance of Noah's Ark. Most of the sites say that there is the possibility of Noah's Ark, and one is about the Turkish government.
None of them are about the publishing of a paper in an independant Scientific Journal about it. None of these claims have been supported by independant means.
But that is beside the point, as I stated, the existance of Noah's Ark does not prove the existance of God, it just gives evidence to a story from those times.
As for your other points, existance based on faith is not proof. Faith alone is not enough to prove existance of something. Nothing you have stated is about proving the existance of a God, only about how you came to your conclusions.
There is a good quote that fails me at this moment. It goes along the lines of:
If someone has come to a belief system not by means of logic, then there is no point in changing their belief based on logic.
I suspect that this thread was started by someone religious that saw this as a way to spread their message.
As for the comment by tabloid about wht is it perfect. Well I have heard this argument before. Its two fold, how can one person write something that predicts the future. The second is, how can someone write something in 'perfect aramaic' or whatever language it is.
Well for the first one, this again is a beleif system. Its opinion based as to whether the bible or any other religious text predicted future events. Just like it is opinion that aliens have abducted people and performed weird sexual experiances. There is no objective evidence, only subjective.
As for the second, it is also a mater of opinion. As they say, you can find any two people to give conflicting opinions about something.
Man its a visitor place now in Turky .. all of these sites Says its Noah's Ark and the scientists say ""We're telling people we're 98 percent sure its Noah's Ark" so u wanna tell the Scientists that they r Wrong .. go ahead make my day lol :D
lloll Thats a Wild opinion than .. for Ppl before 632 A.D .. lol which us now cant predict or give opinions like that !! :D
so ur Telling me the Hole book is a Wild Guess lol !! ok.. :lol:
i wonder how did they guess that the Ark gonna be on the Mountin too ... hmmm..Damn those ppl before 632 A.D were smarter than us now .. lol
Please read what I posted, regardless of whether Noah's Ark has been found or not, that doesn't prove the existance of God.
I am a bit of a history nut, and love reading about these sort of discoveries and claims. And I know that there isn't any proof yet. If there was it would have been reported in a scientific journal. Popular media reports are not enough for proof, otherwise we would all beleive very strange things indeed.
i read what u posted .. and like i said:
lloll Thats a Wild opinion than .. for Ppl before 632 A.D .. lol which us now cant predict or give opinions like that !!
P.S: how bout that u go to Turky and see it by urself ! lol or go search more so u can be sure and by the way the discovery is old so u wont find in nowadays media ! :`)
P.S 2: visitors center just above the ARK opened May 1989 ... so go to Turkey and see it .. i dont think they would do a visitor center for it if there not sure :``)
Did you read what I said? Read my original post. In it i said that regardless of whether the Ark has been found, this is not proof of the existance of a God.
If you wish links I can provide. A quick search provided this one:
http://www.geocities.com/ronwyattsdiscoveries/noah2.htm which in itself links to another one.
The biggest problem with your links is that half of them are about Ron Wyatt, a person with a mission to prove something. The other half are media reports about what Ron has claimed. The popular media don't care about facts, just what sells well, so no need to post them.
Anyway, i'm not going to waste my time trying to find the non religious opinion on the Ark. I have better things to do, like do some gfx. So I think I will now leave this thread alone.
/MetalSkin
lol ok whatever u say .. like i told u go to Turkey and see it ! lol im not wasting my time explaining it to u .. go see it by urself.
God Made the Ark The Sign for all ppl .. but ppl r to stupid to notice lol !!Quote:
Did you read what I said? Read my original post. In it i said that regardless of whether the Ark has been found, this is not proof of the existance of a God.
if its Written in Our Quran the story and where it ended up and God Said:
"But We saved him and the companions of the Ark, and We made the (Ark) a Sign for all peoples!" 029.015
than thats the proof of existance of God ! :D
Sorry, but thats not proof. One fact in a book substatiated doesn't prove the others. The Quran mentions towns and cities which have been proven, that doesn't mean all the Quran is true.
Any myths or legends, including religious texts are normaly based on fact, a lot of the ancient greek gods, and the stories surounding them are based on factual events.
So even if they prove the exsistance of the Ark, that doesn't automaticaly make every other statement in the Quran true. All it proves is that the author or authors knew of its existance when it was written.
So sorry, your quote doesn't convince me at all.
lol ok...Anyways .. God is the all Almighty he doesnt need to proove anything more than that (Quran) to the unbelivers so they can beilieve in him...u will relize that when the time comes .. and there is no way back and no excuse at that time .. :`)
all the Quran is true...bring me one thing thats not true from the Quran ?Quote:
The Quran mentions towns and cities which have been proven, that doesn't mean all the Quran is true.
man just look at urself who created u in the best forum of beings .. who created the sky and earth .. u gonna tell me they just appeared like that ! and if u cant answer that .. lol than dont argue ! :D
Quran Says:
"He (God) causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is God, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw." Fatir 035.013
"O ye men! It is ye that have need of God: but God is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise" Fatir 035.015
See it doesnt matter if u didnt believe at the end u gonna need him he's not gonna need u :D
You see ellusionist, you say comments and make statements about things in the Quran but have no real evidence other than 'there IS something other than yourselves and your limited minds' and you should really be backing it up. I dont mean to criticise you harshly but you cant make all the statements from the Quran you like but how is that supposed to convince others that Allah exists.
I am a Christian and am only 15 years of age but I firmly believe that God exists and Jesus died on the cross for the salvation of sin but do not have all the answers. My knowlege is limited on the subject on God existing or and facts to prove he does. But like i said, i firmly believe in God and you should try and help others learn about Allah rather than tell them that he exists - full stop. Just a thought.
And to Ellusionist its really ben great knowing more about the religion of Islam, being from Australia it is a real issue over here between the Christians and the Muslims but the Qaran and the Bible contain the same characters and same stories but place emphasis on who the righteous one is.
KRAZEE ... man u came at the last post and u dont know what the hell is goin lol :D .... what kind of real evidence .. isnt enough that the humens r evidence or the sky or the moon or the earth and so on ... what else do u want .. i gave them all the evidence they want .. but they r to ignorent to notice ... so what u wanna see God to believe in him .. then keep Dreaming ! lol :D
Man thats what im doin all this time .. check back on the previous posts.. !Quote:
and you should try and help others learn about Allah rather than tell them that he exists - full stop. Just a thought.
they can learn about God (Allah) from the Quran .. i cant say somethings by my own and make up things thats why i always refer to the Quran because its the Words of God !! :lol:
Besides all Teenagers here lol .. so its gonna take LONG ASS TIME TO CONVINCE THEM lol !! :lol:
Ellusionist, I'm 36. I do have a teenage sone though who will be 16 shortly.
Either way, I was involved heavily with a church in my younger years, and since then I have moved on, so if you wish you can call me a lost cause.
I suspect my age and my experiance is most prob. the biggest hurdle to you convincing me of what your typing.
kewl u r 36 then u should know better .. just answer my simple Question and if u prove it im done .. who created everything (space, stars,earth, humens, moon and so on) ? if u dont know or u think its not God then bring me a proove and thank u :D
Lets talk about Logic:
It is only logical to believe that before anything was created there had to be a Creator. It is, also, only logical to believe that this Creator had to be an eternal being without beginning or end and that nothing could be like this Creator. It is this Unique Being the Only Supreme Being worthy of worship.
im i Right or Wrong ?! :D
Belief in a big bang or a creator isn't about logic, its about belief in the unknown. Neither is more logical, they are just different opinions. I don't beleive there is any hard evidence about the big bang, and I dont beleive there is any hard evidence about there being a creator.
Books that people wrote are not realy going to convince me either way too.
Thats just my view of things, doesn't mean I'm right though.
Exactly .. so why dont u go and try to find the right answer or the truth.Quote:
Thats just my view of things, doesn't mean I'm right though.
because u know that we didnt appear just like that and even for example a big bang happen .. still wont creat a best being form like a humen :D
P.S: ask urself this Question when u die .. whats gonna happen .. u know something have to happen right ? :D
yup, when i die, the worms get my body. beyond that is pure speculation! :-D
I suscribe to the viking view. A very buxom woman on a horse is gonna come tearin down from valhalla, and give me a lift to a very nice feast where i can put my feet up on the table, swill beer, eat roast meat and belch eternity away.
wow.. this is turning into a massive debate..
why cant people jsut think simply - either there is a god or there isnt
ahh but deep blue this touches on belief systems, which are normaly a central part to the make of a persons being. As such anything that questions a central pillar to a persons being is bound to raise debate at the least, if not intense emotions :-)
I honestly cant even be bothered to read what ellusionist says anymore. Its the same incoherent shit every time.
So now we got you on the ropes. Its 3 against one and Noahs Ark isnt gonna get you back on your feet. Now whats your strategy? Laugh at what everyone says and try to belittle their opinions. This debate has turned into a "haha, you believe in that?!" convorsation.
Its religions freaks like yourself, with an incomprehensible devotion to something no one has even proven to YOU that drive me nuts. You talk a lot about it, but for some reason I dont believe you have as full of an understanding of your religion as you claim you do.
wow, strong thoughts, i agree to them even tho i ahvent read much of ellusionist has said, hes posted like 50 tiems on this topic
Tabloid .. if u cant explain sshit or proove on how we r created and so on .. then dont Argue .. lolQuote:
I honestly cant even be bothered to read what ellusionist says anymore. Its the same incoherent shit every time.
So now we got you on the ropes. Its 3 against one and Noahs Ark isnt gonna get you back on your feet. Now whats your strategy? Laugh at what everyone says and try to belittle their opinions. This debate has turned into a "haha, you believe in that?!" convorsation.
Its religions freaks like yourself, with an incomprehensible devotion to something no one has even proven to YOU that drive me nuts. You talk a lot about it, but for some reason I dont believe you have as full of an understanding of your religion as you claim you do.
if u dont have an answer then just shutup lol :D
buddy you just dont get it lol
after all those posts, you still havent said shit.
ahhh you have to love a debate about religion. it always ends in frustration for most, and normaly ends up with a lot of emotion.
Hence why most wars either are because of ideology or its used as an excuse.
Personally I think I'm going to stay out of this debate unless I see something funny and can't hold back on a satirical comment.
u have not said shit either !! atleast i showed what i have but u didnt show me anyshit or prove that God dont Exist !! :DQuote:
buddy you just dont get it lol
after all those posts, you still havent said shit.
Quote:
Originally posted by MetalSkin@Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM
ahhh you have to love a debate about religion. it always ends in frustration for most, and normaly ends up with a lot of emotion.
Hence why most wars either are because of ideology or its used as an excuse.
Personally I think I'm going to stay out of this debate unless I see something funny and can't hold back on a satirical comment.
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:D
yeah... good call hahaha
Im tired, and I can just see by the end of this Ellusionist and I arent going to be on good terms. SO, with that I gracefully withdrawl from this debate. Congrats Ellu, you win ;)
No hard feelings mate, its all in the name of science lol.
Now thats funny :-DQuote:
Originally posted by tabloid@Apr 6 2005, 12:15 PM
No hard feelings mate, its all in the name of science lol.
