Iran

[Kiwi_Mjolnir]

What do you guys think about Iran?
Personally I think the USA has taken the wrong stance on them. They are an organised country and should be allowed to have nuclear power. How is it the USA dictates who can and cannot have nuclear power? Dont gimme that UN stuff, for we all know that theyre just a tool of the US

But really, MY country could have nuclear power if it chose too, and who would protest? No one because the USA wouldn't be upset, they'd be happy. Essentially what they are doing is exploiting a nation of its wealth, using propaganda to say that this country is too unstable for nuclear facilities and all the while taking their oil and saying it is the Iranians fault (basically) for the rising oil prices.

Would like to hear your points of view.

[Tai-Pan]

Maybe because they finish there daily prayers with death to America and other nut job statements like that. They have loads of oil so there is no need for Nuclear power and lastly if the States don't do anything then Israel will go in and **** Iran big time, no way will they sit back and allow Iran to develop nukes. So if that happens it could kick off big time in the whole middle east so I'm hoping the UN and America sort Iran out.

[Sui Generis]

Iran has demonstrated over the years a lack of control and has a reputation of being reckless and threatening. Their president, especially, whose name i'm not going to look up, is a fucking madman. the US doesn't want to see a repeat with a leader possessing immense power (ie: nukes) and oppressing his people and threatening countries around him. It is not like the US is picking on iran. Perhaps if iran was a more controlled and collected country they shuold be allowed to have nukes, but, like iraq under saddam, they only want to use the nukes for the offensive. The US's policy is opposite: we only attack in defense. Whether it is defense of our own country, or of an allied country, or a country who cannot defend itself (iraq), or to prevent a pre-emptive strike. Despite what you and millions of other anti-usa people claim, the US is not powerhungry, nor is it trying to take away rights of other countries, nor is it trying to control them in ways they do not want to go. The US and UN have a responsibility to protect when they see something going wrong. I find it ironic that you call the UN a tool of the US seeing as how it protects a handful of countries OTHER than the US; those who cannot defend themselves. It's not oppressive, it's charitable.

and stop with the fucking oil talk. This is not about oil; we have other sources of oil than iran, and not to mention, the "US" is not "blaiming the iranians for raising oil prices". It is the oil companies; independent from the government. The government has done NOTHING wrong with the oil; and all that bullshit propoganda that says that we are just using the war in iraq as a way to get oil, and that we are only concerned with iran because of its oil is just that: bullshit. oil prices have gone up because of many other factors, such as hurricane katrina knocking out a number of refineries. The government is not trying to run a ploy to screw its citizens out of their money by raising oil prices, nor are they trying to rule the way in an alternative manner by controlling the supply of oil. If you cannot see that the US is doing other countries a favor, then you should move to a place like Iraq before we intervened and see how well you like it.

It seems as if all anyone watches out for anymore is themselves. So when another country the like the US, or the UK send troops in to aid a country by removing an oppressive dictator, or starting up a government, or removing terrorists, we shuold all be thankful that there is still some brotherhood among nations. I suppose it isn't really your fault; hell, if i judged everything by what i saw on the news, i'd probably think the same way you do too. According to the news, many of the iraqi citizens do not want the troops to be there; which is just bullshit, because what they don't show, is that there are FAR more that do. The media also fuels the fire of the oil issue, because controversy is always a better story than settlement. So if there's a possiblity that there is a story about propoganda, they'll pursue it rather than show something going right. War and conflict always sell more than peace.

iran needs to be dealt with. We have tried peacefully, but the president doesn't show sign of letting up. If you want to talk about powerhungry, get off your highhorse about the US, look at Iran. Their president wants nothing more than to have people fear him. He wants his citizens to fear him, and he wants other countries to fear him. Because when people fear you, you feel powerful.

[SIIIIDRA]

Yeah, that's a great idea. Lets give them all the nuclear power they can have!

You know it's not like Ahminjad (sp) said he was going to wipe Israel off the map or anything. Plus the comments about The Holocaust not happening. He's a great guy. Oh and I almost forgot the part where he now makes Jews wear yellow ribbons and Christians wear red ribbons. Oh and the oppression on women, forget about that. We want their oil.

What do you guys think about Iran?
Personally I think the USA has taken the wrong stance on them. They are an organised country and should be allowed to have nuclear power. How is it the USA dictates who can and cannot have nuclear power? Dont gimme that UN stuff, for we all know that theyre just a tool of the US
[/b]

How would you know that the US has a wrong stance on Iran when you no nothing about them? Organized country? Not at all. They never recovered from the 1980's war with Iraq.

And how can the US dictate this? They can't. Iran is trying to get nuclear power anyway. Also the UN as a tool of the US? Please, not at all. The UN is a bunch of European pussies that won't act until it's too late just like The Holocuast.

[Kiwi_Mjolnir]

Yeah, that's a great idea. Lets give them all the nuclear power they can have!

You know it's not like Ahminjad (sp) said he was going to wipe Israel off the map or anything. Plus the comments about The Holocaust not happening. He's a great guy. Oh and I almost forgot the part where he now makes Jews wear yellow ribbons and Christians wear red ribbons. Oh and the oppression on women, forget about that. We want their oil.
How would you know that the US has a wrong stance on Iran when you no nothing about them? Organized country? Not at all. They never recovered from the 1980's war with Iraq.

And how can the US dictate this? They can't. Iran is trying to get nuclear power anyway. Also the UN as a tool of the US? Please, not at all. The UN is a bunch of European pussies that won't act until it's too late just like The Holocuast.
[/b]

:lol: So much material to use!
First off, the UN was not around when the Holocau$t happened.
Second, what has Iran ever done to the USA? Have they publically ever said anything that was anti american? Not that I have heard. Only anti Jewish (not anti semite) things DIRECTED at america.
Suddenly Iran is unstable because they want Nationalism for their people? Because they want to identify foreigners that do not belong in their country? Because they want to live in their own little sand filled country away from Zionism and weird foreign political idealologies?

What right do we have to force our way of life on any people at all?

As for the whole Holocau$t denial, I can actually see where they are getting their facts from. Don't get me wrong, I know there was a Holocaust and many Jews died. Its just soooo irritating that they always keep changing the numbers and statistics ALL THE TIME. Can anyone actually tell me how many died? I have so much conflicting statistics.

As for Israel America has been helping them since that country had been given 'country' status. Just look at the Arabs and their point of view: They were all living perfectly with one and other, then suddenly some Jews and their European and American allies come along and proclaim that this land is Jewish and would soon become Israel. What would you do if you were in their shoes? I know I'd be fighting!

If the Jewish people love their culture and people so much why are there still more Jews in America alone than in Israel, their supposed homeland?

The UN is a puppet of the USA. Why? Because it was destined to fail from the start. The USA has the power to 'Veto' any decision the UN have made. This basically means that anything the USA doesnt like that the UN thinks should happen they can stop. How is this democratic? Wait, how is the USA democratic? They say all this stuff like ooooh we have to overthrow this tyrannical dictator blah blah blah and restore democracy in this war torn country. WOW, it doesn't take too many braincells to figure out that a war torn country cannot have democracy because there will be armed militant groups fighting to gain control of their country. Why can't they see this? Why cant they see that during war people revert back to primitive instincts? That democracy goes against this?

You may have wondered why I used the $ in the word Holocaust. Is it because I'm a filthy racist Jew hater? Of course not, racism is pathetic. I used that symbol simply because I am pissed off with stuff that is still going on today about the Holocaust and war time atrocities. A few days ago, some Jewish people sued the French government. Why? Their reson was that during WW2, after the Nazis had taken over France, that the French deported thousands of Jewish people to their deaths. The people that sued the government got a huge pay out because some of their ancestors died because of this. HOW IS THIS RIGHT? The Nazis had control of France and were ordering them what to do! Yet these days, in the media it is shown as a great heroic victory to sue a government over something they were forced to do.



Theres my rant. Sorry about spelling and punctuation.
Would like to hear what ya'll have to say to that.

[SIIIIDRA]

:lol: So much material to use!
First off, the UN was not around when the Holocau$t happened.[/b]

You're right. It was the League of Nations back then, which then formed into the U.N. in 1945.

Second, what has Iran ever done to the USA? Have they publically ever said anything that was anti american? Not that I have heard. Only anti Jewish (not anti semite) things DIRECTED at america.
Suddenly Iran is unstable because they want Nationalism for their people? [/b]

Threating our ally by claiming they are going to 'blow them off the map'. Now targeting Christians and Jews as I said in my earlier posts. It's not as much the USA as human rights here.

Because they want to identify foreigners that do not belong in their country? [/b]

Foreigners that don't belong in their country? Judaism is a religion, not a state. That's a great idea, lets just exterminate all the Jews in Iran because an insane president (who thinks the 13th Imam is still coming) doesn't want them there.

Because they want to live in their own little sand filled country away from Zionism and weird foreign political idealologies?[/b]

Zionism is the belief of Jews moving to the Holy Land and has nothing to do with any Jews in Iran. Also what are these wierd idealolgies? Things like putting ribbons on Christians and Jews?

What right do we have to force our way of life on any people at all?[/b]

None. We have a right to defend human rights, though.

As for the whole Holocau$t denial, I can actually see where they are getting their facts from. Don't get me wrong, I know there was a Holocaust and many Jews died. Its just soooo irritating that they always keep changing the numbers and statistics ALL THE TIME. Can anyone actually tell me how many died? I have so much conflicting statistics. [/b]

Oh just 9-12 million were killed. That's just from the Holocaust and not counting Nazi Germany's Eugenics programs. I think its irritating that people like you don't acknowledge The Holocaust to the degree needed be. Maybe you're like Ahminijad (sp) and deny that the Holocaust happened, though.

As for Israel America has been helping them since that country had been given 'country' status. Just look at the Arabs and their point of view: They were all living perfectly with one and other, then suddenly some Jews and their European and American allies come along and proclaim that this land is Jewish and would soon become Israel. What would you do if you were in their shoes? I know I'd be fighting![/b]

To a degree you're right but you're also wrong. Israel was backed by the UN originally but they refused to wait for independence and attacked the British military. Jews were already in Palestine before the conflict, the only land really taken was Jerusalem. If I was in their shoes I would want peace.

If the Jewish people love their culture and people so much why are there still more Jews in America alone than in Israel, their supposed homeland? [/b]

Money, homes, family here, I don't know. I'm sure because of the violence many don't want to move there.

The UN is a puppet of the USA. Why? Because it was destined to fail from the start. The USA has the power to 'Veto' any decision the UN have made. This basically means that anything the USA doesnt like that the UN thinks should happen they can stop. How is this democratic? Wait, how is the USA democratic? They say all this stuff like ooooh we have to overthrow this tyrannical dictator blah blah blah and restore democracy in this war torn country. WOW, it doesn't take too many braincells to figure out that a war torn country cannot have democracy because there will be armed militant groups fighting to gain control of their country. Why can't they see this? Why cant they see that during war people revert back to primitive instincts? That democracy goes against this?[/b]

The USA doesn't control the UN at all. Did the UN support the USA going into Iraq? No. Also we do not have that veto power, I don't know where you heard that. Democracy doesn't go against war, maybe go look it up in a dictionary. Also if you think peace is possible, go to the Middle East and see how it is there. Maybe you could bring flowers to those nice terrorists that execute innocent journalists and record the tapes, I'm sure they would be nice to you.

You may have wondered why I used the $ in the word Holocaust. Is it because I'm a filthy racist Jew hater? Of course not, racism is pathetic. I used that symbol simply because I am pissed off with stuff that is still going on today about the Holocaust and war time atrocities. A few days ago, some Jewish people sued the French government. Why? Their reson was that during WW2, after the Nazis had taken over France, that the French deported thousands of Jewish people to their deaths. The people that sued the government got a huge pay out because some of their ancestors died because of this. HOW IS THIS RIGHT? The Nazis had control of France and were ordering them what to do! Yet these days, in the media it is shown as a great heroic victory to sue a government over something they were forced to do.
Theres my rant. Sorry about spelling and punctuation.
Would like to hear what ya'll have to say to that.
[/b]

The Holocaust was not that long ago. Do I really have to post pictures up for you to realize the extent of it? As for the story you posted, I agree it is stupid. It's not right but you shouldn't look at The Holocaust as some media hype because of it.

[imported_Jack]

Wow great debate guys, I'm impressed.

Just to clarify what Sidra said about the number of deaths during the Holocaust, I'm pretty sure it was 9-12 million total. As for the number of Jews killed, the only amount I've ever heard is 6 million, I haven't heard anything other than that, so the varying statistics you're talking about I haven't seen.

[Kiwi_Mjolnir]

You're right. It was the League of Nations back then, which then formed into the U.N. in 1945.
Threating our ally by claiming they are going to 'blow them off the map'. Now targeting Christians and Jews as I said in my earlier posts. It's not as much the USA as human rights here.

Human rights? Thats what the UN tries to protect isn't it? Now, I'm not sure what media brainwashing you get but did you ever hear of a programme called "Oil for Food"? Perhaps your just too ignorant to acknowledge this? Basically what happened was that the corrupt United Nations demanded oil from the Iraqi people after they had already suffered from the FIRST Gulf War. Oh yeah, ever wondered how Saddam became sooo powerful? The Australian Wheat Board gave him $300 million for oil. But that folks, is another story!

Foreigners that don't belong in their country? Judaism is a religion, not a state. That's a great idea, lets just exterminate all the Jews in Iran because an insane president (who thinks the 13th Imam is still coming) doesn't want them there.

Have you been living under a rock your whole life or something? Yes, 10 points for figuring out that Judaism is a religion! But... did you know there is a Jewish race? Shock horror!
Heres a little bit of info about POLITICAL ZIONISM.

Zionism seeks to establish a home for the Jewish people in Eretz-Israel secured under public law. The Congress contemplates the following means to the attainment of this end:

* The promotion by appropriate means of the settlement in Eretz-Israel of Jewish farmers, artisans, and manufacturers.
* The organization and uniting of the whole of Jewry by means of appropriate institutions, both local and international, in accordance with the laws of each country.
* The strengthening and fostering of Jewish national sentiment and national consciousness.
* Preparatory steps toward obtaining the consent of governments, where necessary, in order to reach the goals of Zionism.

Sooo basically they want to unite all Jews of the world in one nation. You agree on that at least? Well, thats what you call NATIONALISM. The leader of Iran is a NATIONALIST, just like the Jews because he wants self determination for his people, without alien (outside) beliefs. Both of their ideals are very similar.


Zionism is the belief of Jews moving to the Holy Land and has nothing to do with any Jews in Iran. Also what are these wierd idealolgies? Things like putting ribbons on Christians and Jews?[/quote]

Actually no. I was thinking more along the lines of Democracy etc. You see, Western powers have always just carved up countries without thinking. For example: How can Iraq have Democracy when their religious laws prevent women from doing many things (including voting). Well, when you think about it... our 'Democracy' is based off Greek Democracy where the only eligable people to vote were PROVEN Greek citizens (not slaves) that were male and over 18. Are there any Democratic countries on earth these days? Not in that sense anyway.

None. We have a right to defend human rights, though. Oh just 9-12 million were killed. That's just from the Holocaust and not counting Nazi Germany's Eugenics programs. I think its irritating that people like you don't acknowledge The Holocaust to the degree needed be. Maybe you're like Ahminijad (sp) and deny that the Holocaust happened, though.

My point can be found and supported at this website http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/wasthere.htm as well as many others, just do a google search

To a degree you're right but you're also wrong. Israel was backed by the UN originally but they refused to wait for independence and attacked the British military. Jews were already in Palestine before the conflict, the only land really taken was Jerusalem. If I was in their shoes I would want peace.

You would want peace? What? If you were in their shoes you would be wanting to secure what you believed was rightfully yours by killing as many Palestinian people as you could!

Money, homes, family here, I don't know. I'm sure because of the violence many don't want to move there. The USA doesn't control the UN at all. Did the UN support the USA going into Iraq? No. Also we do not have that veto power, I don't know where you heard that. Democracy doesn't go against war, maybe go look it up in a dictionary. Also if you think peace is possible, go to the Middle East and see how it is there. Maybe you could bring flowers to those nice terrorists that execute innocent journalists and record the tapes, I'm sure they would be nice to you.

Huh? You mean you know nothing about the United Nations? Heres a quote from the website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations

"The UN was founded after the end of World War II by the victorious world powers with the hope that it would act to prevent conflicts between nations and make future wars impossible, by fostering an ideal of collective security. The organization's structure still reflects in some ways the circumstances of its founding. For example, the five main victors of World War II are the Security Council permanent members with veto power: The United States of America, the Soviet Union (which was replaced by Russia), the United Kingdom, France, and the Republic of China (later replaced by the People's Republic of China)."

There we go. Its in Black and White. My country protested this when the UN was formed. What do you say now?



pwned

[Sui Generis]

Human rights? Thats what the UN tries to protect isn't it? Now, I'm not sure what media brainwashing you get but did you ever hear of a programme called "Oil for Food"? Perhaps your just too ignorant to acknowledge this? Basically what happened was that the corrupt United Nations demanded oil from the Iraqi people after they had already suffered from the FIRST Gulf War. Oh yeah, ever wondered how Saddam became sooo powerful? The Australian Wheat Board gave him $300 million for oil. But that folks, is another story!
Have you been living under a rock your whole life or something? Yes, 10 points for figuring out that Judaism is a religion! But... did you know there is a Jewish race? Shock horror!
Heres a little bit of info about POLITICAL ZIONISM.

Zionism seeks to establish a home for the Jewish people in Eretz-Israel secured under public law. The Congress contemplates the following means to the attainment of this end:

* The promotion by appropriate means of the settlement in Eretz-Israel of Jewish farmers, artisans, and manufacturers.
* The organization and uniting of the whole of Jewry by means of appropriate institutions, both local and international, in accordance with the laws of each country.
* The strengthening and fostering of Jewish national sentiment and national consciousness.
* Preparatory steps toward obtaining the consent of governments, where necessary, in order to reach the goals of Zionism.

Sooo basically they want to unite all Jews of the world in one nation. You agree on that at least? Well, thats what you call NATIONALISM. The leader of Iran is a NATIONALIST, just like the Jews because he wants self determination for his people, without alien (outside) beliefs. Both of their ideals are very similar.
Zionism is the belief of Jews moving to the Holy Land and has nothing to do with any Jews in Iran. Also what are these wierd idealolgies? Things like putting ribbons on Christians and Jews?

Actually no. I was thinking more along the lines of Democracy etc. You see, Western powers have always just carved up countries without thinking. For example: How can Iraq have Democracy when their religious laws prevent women from doing many things (including voting). Well, when you think about it... our 'Democracy' is based off Greek Democracy where the only eligable people to vote were PROVEN Greek citizens (not slaves) that were male and over 18. Are there any Democratic countries on earth these days? Not in that sense anyway.
My point can be found and supported at this website http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/wasthere.htm as well as many others, just do a google search
You would want peace? What? If you were in their shoes you would be wanting to secure what you believed was rightfully yours by killing as many Palestinian people as you could!
Huh? You mean you know nothing about the United Nations? Heres a quote from the website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations

"The UN was founded after the end of World War II by the victorious world powers with the hope that it would act to prevent conflicts between nations and make future wars impossible, by fostering an ideal of collective security. The organization's structure still reflects in some ways the circumstances of its founding. For example, the five main victors of World War II are the Security Council permanent members with veto power: The United States of America, the Soviet Union (which was replaced by Russia), the United Kingdom, France, and the Republic of China (later replaced by the People's Republic of China)."

There we go. Its in Black and White. My country protested this when the UN was formed. What do you say now?
pwned
[/b]

shut your fucking mouth.

learn how to quote, maybe then we can read it. jackass.

pwned.

[.element]

Guys keep it friendly ok ?